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Full Spectrum Cycling
Weekly Dose of Fat – Show #113 – Morgan Lommele from People for Bikes and take calls from our listeners about e-bikes!
Nov 4, 2016
Weekly Dose of Fat – Show #113 – Morgan Lommele from People for Bikes and take calls from our listeners about e-bikes!
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Transcript
0:00
Dum-dum. Fat Bike Radio presents The Weekly Dose of Fat, starring Sven as Dr. Emilio Lizardo, co-starring Gnomez playing the role of Dr.
0:12
Quest, with JK Living for Lean sconced in the role of Colombian street walker, Sugar Pants. Sugar Pants. This is show number 113. Dun-dun. Lucky number 113. So
0:28
would fat bikes exist without disc brakes, huh? Maybe. I think the original Pug had, uh- But could you-... cantilever brakes on there, V brakes... yeah.
0:38
Uh, I've actually seen a fat bike with V brakes on it, and, uh, I just don't think that-- I think that disc brakes are a big step in us having fat bikes.
0:50
And I'd like to start off the show with a little letter to my friends at SRAM. Dear SRAM, as an encore to the Avid Codes and Elixirs, uh, we received a set of your SRAM Guide RS brakes.
1:08
They failed after 200 yards. [laughs] I, uh, I, I have two sets of Shimano XT brakes, and they seem to operate in a, in a rather ser- sterling fashion.
1:21
Uh- I'd just tell them to scram What are those German brakes you love? Oh, you talk about the Magura. I can never remember that name. Magura. But I always, but I always remember that you run those, those brakes.
1:34
Some, yeah, not so much anymore. No? Are, do you have any XTs? Um, the reason that I liked them is 'cause they were mineral oil. Oh. Um, no, I mostly run, uh, mechanicals [laughs] now. Good.
1:45
I don't go fast enough to need anything that stops really fast. All right. Well, uh, M- Avid mechanicals work.
1:50
Although I do have a set of Guides on my bike, and I haven't had any problems with them yet on my, uh, my Ape, so. Well, we'll s- we'll s- But you have, so tell us about your problems.
1:59
[laughs] Well, they just locked up onto the, onto the caliper when I was betting in the Pats. It's like- For no apparent reason. Yeah. I had to carry the bike back to the garage. At least it was only 200 yards.
2:12
It's like, come on, man. SRAM, uh, maybe if, if- Is that, is that like smelt? Because, you know, do, do you call it a smelt or a smelt? If you're from Milwaukee, you call it a smelt. But really- So you're saying SRAM.
2:28
SRAM. And I'm saying SRAM. SRAM. It's like do you say schwag or swag? I see. Well, maybe if I- [laughs]... if I knew how to pronounce the name correctly, maybe the brakes would've worked. But [laughs] there you go.
2:42
So if you buy a bike [laughs] with some SRAM brakes, don't call them SRAM brakes 'cause they'll lock up on your, on your rotor, and then you'll have to carry your bike home. You learn that.
2:55
You learn some things, some amazing things here on the, uh, Weekly Dose of Fat. Right on. So the Avid mechanicals work okay though, right? Yeah.
3:05
And the good thing about SRAM is they actually pioneered the one by 18 drivetrain. I think it's called the, uh, monitor lizard grupo. [laughs] Where the, the large chain ring's as big as the rim? Yeah. Yeah. Nice.
3:22
Mm-hmm. Isn't this an E-bike call-in show? Our Surface 604 fatty bike is powering this entire broadcast. So what's on the E-show this E-week, E-color announcer, E-guy? Make a joyful noise us.
3:38
Schedule for this evening's choir practice will commence in the presence of gnomes with hymn number 351. Please, turn your hymn books to page 88 and sing with me. Events of the week.
3:56
We talk to, uh, Morgan from, uh, People on Bikes about official E-bike policy from the bicycle advocacy side of the table.
4:06
We take calls from our listeners about what they think about E-bikes in the fat mountain and cargo categories. We answer a listener question about... What bike should I buy? What bike should I buy? Oh, God.
4:21
Hey, wait, this just in. There is no fatty farm field report due to Tsunami Brad. Fuck Brad. In this evening's special- Five minutes in. [laughs]... segment, we'll talk about a couple of road shows that- I-...
4:36
we'll be recording this winter. I think we're gonna have a swear jar. Had I known that I would get scolded for swearing- [laughs]... I would've sweared sooner. Hey, you forgot links.
4:46
Uh, I worked my ass off getting those links. And you know who else we should probably introduce here? We have, uh, our ambassador, fat ambassador to the Netherlands, [bell rings] Mr. Ian.
5:00
And I don't know, and I actually practiced several crazy ways to say your last name. Let me just throw a few at you. Nikod. Incorrect. [laughs] Wrong. Niko. Oh, wrong. Wrong again. Wrong. Nikod. Wrong. Wrong. Naked.
5:16
Think French. Uh-huh. Nikod. Close. Niku. Niku. Niku. Does it have a D at the end? It does, silent. There's a Niku that has a body shop up in Port Washington. That's my uncle. Bill. Yeah, he's my uncle.
5:28
He does a great job on fixing up cars when you hit deer and shit like that. He's a good painter, too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know him from the BMW club. Yeah. So that's the BMW section of this show. Damn.
5:38
Hey, you know what else we got besides Ian? What? We got a caller. Yeah. Hey, caller. How you doing? Eh, what's up, fellas? [laughs] It's Travis from Anchorage.
5:55
Yeah, and Ian can't, Ian can't hear- I- Ian doesn't have any cans. Ian- He can't hear... Ian's like- Can't hear Travis... "Wait, they're talking to ghosts." But it's Travis. [burps] Oh, you know what?
6:05
Greg likes to cut those birches, belches out. I could probably, uh, I could probably find some headphones for Ian. Anyway, what's up, Travis? I just got back from a ride on a little snow and ice, what we got left.
6:18
Yeah, yeah. Pop quiz, Travis. Yeah, yeah. How do you feel about e-bikes on your trails? I am cool with e-bikes on my trails if people need them due to, uh, illness, physical disability, injury.
6:35
I don't have a problem with that at all. Uh, if you're just making the trail and the climbs easier, you know, uh, get in shape.
6:44
So you guys got a lot of double-track trails where other motorized vehicles like Jeeps and snowmobiles and four-wheelers and all that other kind of stuff go.
6:52
Do you have any specific trails that are really bike only, where they would be, like, non-motorized traffic? How would you feel about it on them with the motor on the bike then?
7:01
Yeah, that kind of brings in a whole new question. Um, yeah, we do have, you know, multi-use trails that are kind of hiker, biker, skier only, and, uh, you know, I'd like to see, I guess, some evidence.
7:14
I wouldn't have a problem with them on any of those trails in the wintertime when there's the snow packed down or even an ice layer, which is pretty much what we've been riding on for the last three years.
7:24
But, uh, yeah, summertime and muddy conditions, I guess I'd be, you know, interested to see a little more study on the, the impact on the trails, 'cause- There is a study... I've tested a few e-bikes- Study...
7:36
and they've really got torque, man.
7:39
There is a, there is a study that IMBA paid for, um, where they tested an e-, a mountain bike versus a mountain bike versus a motorcycle, and, uh, we'll put a link of that, to that in the show notes for you to take a look at.
7:55
Have you ever, uh, put on your Sunday best and ridden an e-bike, sir? Uh, I have test driven a couple in bike shop parking lots. Okay. [laughs] And I was- So you know what it feels like...
8:08
I was blown away by the torque on that and the takeoff. It was, uh, yeah, it was a pretty crazy experience. I think people that live in a cold climate like Alaska are gonna find that those batteries just don't last.
8:20
You're gonna need a- I think it's a new product. We need a, an e-bike battery heater.com, uh- Oh, bam, right there, like, like a little blanket, a little, a little down vest for your, for your down tube. Right, right.
8:32
Koozie. Yeah. You know- Got my hat back on my real bicycle... it could be like a, it could be like a pilot relief tube, where you whiz into the hose and your whiz goes down there and keeps it warm.
8:42
That would be something. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure what. Yeah. But it would be something. Becker's got a- It'd keep your weasel, keep your weasel warm, too.
8:49
I think that's, that's somebody's- Yeah, Becker's, Becker's got a bag for that. [laughs] Isn't that, isn't that somebody's hashtag? #KeepYourWeaselWarm? Yeah. Well, you know, I'll take three guesses who that is.
9:03
Hey, uh, don't we, don't we have, like, a, a station break coming up or something? Yeah. What? What? We could do that already. I guess when we come back, we'll talk to, uh, to Morgan from People on Bikes.
9:16
Yeah, all that and more after this break, brought to you by Los Gachos de Capibara Buttar. [upbeat music] Up in the Great White North, they make bikes for every trail and every season.
9:33
RST guarantees you'll have a smoking good time carving lines with their fatty Mayor. Next season, the big guy gets new builds with an optional Bluto fork up front, one-by-11 setups, and new colors, too.
9:46
The most playful fatty on the market still clocks in under 30 pounds for less than two grand. Or talk to your RST bike dealer about any of the trick new options, and always keep the rubber side down.
10:00
You're tuned to Fat Bike Radio. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Tonight, uh, we're talking to our special guest, Morgan Lomeli from PeopleForBikes. And, uh, welcome to the show, Morgan. Thank you.
10:18
So, uh, PeopleForBikes, can, can you give us a little background on what that organization does and, uh, the mission it, it has?
10:26
Yeah, PeopleForBikes is a industry-led nonprofit organization that tries to make bicycling better for everyone and improve everybody's ride.
10:35
So we work on, um, advocating for bicycle infrastructure and, um, also work in, on, on the state and, uh, federal levels to improve bicycle laws around the country.
10:48
So you, you guys are part of the, uh, the Bicycle Suppliers, uh, uh, Association, correct? Well, the Bicycle Product Suppliers Association is the, um, is the organization that represents all the bicycle suppliers.
11:01
So PeopleForBikes is a nonprofit group, and BPSA, um, is the trade organization for the bicycle industry. Gotcha. So, um, I mean, e-bikes are not a brand-new thing. They've been around for a while now.
11:14
Um, how do they kind of fit into what PeopleForBikes is doing? Well, we find that e-bikes are a great way to attract new people into cycling.
11:21
Um, the kinds of people who are buying an electric bicycle and using them aren't traditional cyclists.
11:28
Um, they've either been turned away from cycling because, um, you know, either they live on a big hill or have a long commute or, um, might have a physical disability or any other, um, reason why bicycling wasn't an option for them.
11:42
But a s- a small low-speed motor on an ele- on a bicycle is, um, enabling them to, to get around by bike for transportation and for fun.
11:50
So we see it as a way to get more people riding bikes, which is what we want at the end of the day. Yeah, I think that's a fantastic goal. Uh, so have you ridden e-bikes yourself?
12:01
Yes, and I, I consider myself kind of the poster child [laughs] for someone who's a lifelong cyclist but has incorporated an electric bicycle into my everyday life.
12:09
I have- Two kids under two, and I have been able to ride them to daycare every day on a long tail electric cargo bike.
12:17
Um, last week I bought 250 pounds, or $250 worth of groceries with both kids on the bike and, and hauled that all the way up the hill to my house.
12:27
Um, I ride one generally on a daily basis, and I find myself riding my other bikes, um, as often as I used to, whether it's a mountain bike or a road bike or just a, a, a non-motor traditional bicycle.
12:39
So, um, their utility is really fantastic and it, and it's exciting, um, what you can do with an electric bicycle that you either can't do with a car or can't do with a traditional bike. Right. Cool.
12:50
So you do or have ridden mountain bikes on, on local trails or single track, that type of thing too, correct? Electric mountain bikes? No, just any mountain bike in general really.
12:59
Just, you know, go out mountain biking on a trail on your traditional mountain bike. Yep, yep. I'm, I, um, I used to work for the International Mountain Bicycling Association, and I'm a lifelong mountain biker as well.
13:09
I, I would identify first and foremost as a mountain biker. Yeah. Cool.
13:13
So, well, I think that puts you in a good position being a, being a user of an electric bike as well as being a, a, you know, an avid mountain biker. What, what do you...
13:21
how do you see electric bikes, especially pedal assist bikes versus bikes that simply have a throttle on them fitting into, like, a single track situation where traditionally it's been just h- human powered mountain bikes?
13:35
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's where things get a little, um, a little more dicey simply because, uh, you know, an electric mountain bike does have a motor.
13:45
And so a lot of people's initial reaction is to say, "Well, it's therefore a motorized vehicle."
13:51
But it, it's not a motorized vehicle in the same vein as a motorcycle or a combustion engine vehicle, um, that emits, uh, you know, uh, eme- uh, fumes, makes noise.
14:03
Um, it is, is a very much more powerful machine than an electric mountain bike. So,
14:11
um, PeopleForBikes and, and the Bicycle Product Suppliers Association recognize that if you were to allow an electric mountain bike on all trails that are open to non-motorized vehicles, um, that might not be the best policy solution.
14:24
So what we're, what we really advocate is, is... are two things.
14:28
One is, um, encouraging anyone who wants to ride an electric mountain bike to do so on trails that are only open to motorized uses, and there are 300,000 miles of, of trails open to motorized use.
14:41
Um, and some of them are really spectacular single track trails, the 300,000 miles in the country.
14:47
Um, we're inventorying all the great single track rides in the country that are open to eMTBs, and we, we found about 10,000 miles of trails of truly fantastic single track where you can ride.
15:00
And the second thing we're trying to do is just from a policy perspective, taking the long game here and, um, trying to work with federal land management agencies like the Forest Service and, and the BLM, both of whom generally manage most of the recreation trails in the country that are open to bikes.
15:16
Um, try to get them to, to portray e-mountain bikes as w- not a, not a traditional mountain bike, right? And not a, um, a motorized vehicle like a, a motorcycle or an ATV, but somewhere in between.
15:30
And maybe think through ways that we could promote responsible access for electric mountain bikes on non-motorized trails down the line, not tomorrow, but within the next five, 10 years.
15:42
So it's a new, it's a new way to use public lands, and it's a new way to get people outside, um, e- enjoying our public lands.
15:50
Um, but the policy atmosphere around how to regulate eMTBs is still, it's still very much, um, up for discussion.
15:59
We try to be at the table during that discussion so that people who do wanna ride an eMTB can do so where they want. Right on.
16:06
Just so do you make a, you make a differentiation between a pedal assist bike where you actually have to put input into the pedals and you get an assist versus something that has either, you know, pedals that don't do anything but move the bike, but it has a throttle on it rather than, than an assist.
16:21
So is there, is there, uh, a difference in your goal t- for these policies between those two types of vehicles? Yep.
16:30
So there, there are three classes of electric bicycles, and what we're talking about are low speed electric bicycles. Anything that's beyond this is truly a motorcycle or an electric motorcycle.
16:40
So the three classes are, um, class one, which is, uh, a pedal assist e-bike where you have to be pedaling to engage the motor, where the motor maxes out at 20 miles an hour.
16:51
So you can r- go as fast as you want, but as soon as the motor senses that the bike has hit 20 miles an hour, the motor shuts off.
17:00
Um, the, the class two is a throttle actuated e-bike, so the same kind of e-bike, but you don't have to be pedaling to engage the motor. You can, uh, twist the throttle and get going.
17:09
And I see these w- as a great, a great bike for people who don't have the power or have a disability and can't, um, propel the bike forward.
17:18
Um, and class three e-bikes are pedal assist only, but the motor maxes out at 28 miles an hour, so they go a little bit faster.
17:27
And when we talk about trying to at least work with land management agencies on a trail by trail basis, thinking about where an eMTB might make sense on a non-motorized trail, and again, these conversations are very preliminary, and right now we're really focused on encouraging people to ride on motorized trails.
17:47
But when we do have those conversations, we say we're only advocating for class one eMTBs, so pedal assist, very low speed eMTBs, um, to be classified as this new kind of bike that might in the future ha- be able to have access on non-motorized trails.
18:03
Okay, so on a, on a class- And one more thing about that is that we've done some...
18:07
we've partnered with the International Mountain Bicycling Association trying to look at whether- These low speed class one electric mountain bikes, um, cause any natural resource damage or trail damage.
18:17
Um, and really they're, they're almost the same as a regular mountain bike. So any time you're on a trail, you cause a small level of damage up to, you know, a lot of damage.
18:26
And regular, regular mountain bikes and class one EMTBs, um, really don't cause a lot of pr- premature soil displacement or trail erosion or general trail damage.
18:38
So, um, we're more trying to figure out the social sides of, of things, how people can interact with an EMTB on trail, um, if they're, if they're walking or hiking or on a traditional bike. Right.
18:50
Yeah, I think this is what we've discovered talking to people, you know, leading up to this show, is that it's really, it's in the infancy of how these are gonna fit in.
18:57
And, uh, you know, appreciate that you guys are kind of at the, at the, the leading edge of it along with IMBA to try and, you know, get out ahead of the game and make sure that there's not a lot of, uh, use that is unregulated or, or detrimental to our existing trail systems.
19:13
But, uh, you know, I think you guys are on the right path. I'd certainly like to keep up with this because, again, it's in its infancy, so you know, I, I think there's a lot more to- Okay...
19:22
a lot more to the discussion than, than has happened so far.
19:25
Yep, and it's important to note that, you know, some of the, the policy inroads that IMBA has made over the last 30 years to gain equal access for mountain bikes on trails is just second to none.
19:35
And any work that, that we do to promote electric mountain bikes on trails, it has to be incredibly sensitive to that.
19:44
We don't want to give fodder to any anti-mountain bike advocates to say, you know, "If, if you're allowing EMTBs on trails, then you should just blanket ban all mountain bikes." And that would be,
19:56
that would just be catastrophic for mountain biking in general.
19:59
So the conversation really does revolve around at first trying to understand the technology, um, promote people, pro- or advocate for people to ride on, on motorized trails so that, um, mountain bikers are, you know, continue to be a respectful, um, group of folks, and just start the conversation with Forest Service and the BLM thinking about,
20:22
you know, where they might fit on, on non-motorized trails. It's really, it's a process. [laughs] Yeah, for sure.
20:29
I know we, we've had a couple of, uh, of fat bikes that are, are E-powered, uh, both pedal assist, uh, one from Specialized and another one from a smaller manufacturer in Canada.
20:39
And, um, I know that, you know, a, a big company like Specialized or Trek that's, that's planning products is a couple years down the road already on, on what their plans are.
20:48
Um, how do you see the, the manufacturers fitting in with kind of the education and, you know, enlightening people as to what these, what these bikes are capable of?
20:57
Yeah, I mean, they're, they're a huge part of it, and I re- I, um, I'm accountable to the industry when it comes to this. Yeah.
21:04
If you think about it, everyone, everyone bikes, r- rides their, sorry, buys their bike in a shop.
21:09
So the best way to, to communicate to people where they can ride, how they can be involved, um, joining a, joining up with a community of E-bike riders is through the shops.
21:19
So through the manufacturers and through the reps, we're trying to give them all the information they need so that, you know, at the point of sale someone has all the information they want about, about E-bikes.
21:31
Um- Very good... they, I mean, they make some really exciting products, and they're excited to, to get more people on bikes too, so. Yeah. Cool. Well, I appreciate you taking time to talk to us today.
21:42
And, uh, I think maybe we'll catch up down the trail a little bit and see, you know, once we get a little bit more, uh, info on, on how people are using them, what's actually happening with, with legislation and such, we'd like to get an update.
21:53
So thanks, uh, thanks for catching up with us. Sure. Yeah, if anyone... Great. If anyone would like more information, just go to peopleforbikes.org/e-bikes, so E-bikes. Okay. We'll put that link in the show notes. Great.
22:06
Thanks. Thanks very much, Morgan. Have a good one. My pleasure. Okay. You too. Yep. Bye. You're tuned to Fat Bike Radio. Hey, welcome back to the radio program.
22:19
We're back from the break, and I just wanna send a shout-out to the rifleman, Jordan Wakeley, bonne chance for a glorious victory at Iceman Cometh this weekend, mein freund. What the fuck did you just say? Uh, what?
22:35
You can't just slip in the event of the week as a shout-out. But he just did. No, no. Uh-uh. No. No, no, no, no, no. I spent time researching and writing a special piece about the real event of the week.
22:46
The event of the week is the Iceman Cometh. Well played, Hosford. [laughs] That was like, uh, Curt Gowdy on American Sportsman, man. Hey. In-depth sports reporting. [laughs] Hey. Hey.
22:57
Hey, Norm, let's take calls from our listener. Yeah. So it is- So let's, let's do that. How about we do take a call from one of our listener? All right. Welcome to radio program. Who do we have on the line from Oregon?
23:12
This is Keith from Sun River. Right on, man. Hey, Keith. How are you? Thanks for calling in. Gomez is gonna lead you through the hymnal. How are you guys doing tonight? Oh, Lord.
23:22
[laughs] So, uh, have you ever ridden an E-bike, sir? Not yet. All right.
23:27
Um, they're definitely prohibited here on most of our trails, but I would totally be interested in trying one just for the sheer ability to make the climbs quicker so I could do more downhill.
23:38
Yeah, that is, that is, uh, that's something that Sven had brought up, is that for shuttles. It was- That is-... it was my plan if I'd gone to Vegas to ride one up at, uh, at Boot Creek- Mm-hmm...
23:49
Black Lizard Canyon there too- Mm-hmm... uh, for that very reason. Instead of waiting for the, the diesel truck to take you up there, you could do it on your own. Yeah. Get more time in on the downhills.
23:59
So what are your thoughts about E-bikes on your home trails? And I'd always... And I'm gonna be talking specifically to people asking that question about, "I, uh, how do you feel about E-bikes on trails?"
24:11
It'd be fine over there, but it- Generally becomes much- Nimby, nimby, nimby... much, much more [laughs] Not in my backyard. There you go. [laughs] Now I know what he's talking about. E-lordy.
24:24
So, uh- Did you just say e-lordy? I- yeah, e-lordy. [laughs] That's the Lord with the goddamn battery. So, uh, how do you feel about- I th- I think, I think it would be cool to have both, you know, regular...
24:40
You know, there's so many trails here, as you guys know, like with W- with, uh, Winoga and some of the other trails that we've talked about before that are here in Central Oregon that I think, I think it'd be totally cool to do, like, half the trails one way and the other half- Mm-hmm...
24:55
so if you're a purist, you can go out. But I th- I, I really do believe that. I think it's gonna help more people get into the sport of mountain biking and fat biking, and I really, honestly, I see no problem with it.
25:11
I, I don't think I'd be out there on a trail and be like, "Oh, that guy, you know, you could totally tell he didn't pedal up here."
25:18
I, I, I just don't know any mountain bikers that are not, like, super supportive of just seeing people being active.
25:26
I think you're gonna run more into the, uh, hikers and stuff like that, but, you know, we have so much dedicated single track here that I'm sure we could figure out a way to make it work. Cool.
25:37
Well, that is a very, uh, that's, that's, that's an open mind, man. That's a well-reasoned response. I like that. Kindness is cool. You're a good dude, man. Yeah. Thanks for calling the show.
25:48
Hey, thanks, guys, for having me on. Yeah. Have a great night. Talk to you again. Do we have another caller, or should we go right to Ian? We should go right to Ian. Ian, first of all, have you ridden an e-bike, sir?
26:00
I have ridden an e-bike, although I have not ridden an e-mountain bike. Okay. And this is where my personal conflict comes in. And your personal trails, trails that perhaps you've even built, are you...
26:11
How do you feel about e-bikes being on your backyard single track? I, I don't really care for it. I think that e-bikes are a great idea and they have a place in the bike industry.
26:22
Uh, in Holland, where I live now, their bikes are everywhere and there are a lot of e-bikes, but they're used for commuting- Mm-hmm...
26:30
or for pleasure, and they're great for people who are older that need the extra mobility or if you're covering long distances.
26:37
But I think for trails, we need to reserve those to the people who sort of built them, who earned their way to ride on them, and I equate it sort of to the, the Mount Everest tourism, right?
26:50
Just because you can go doesn't mean you should go. We were actually talking about a chairlift up Mount Everest the other day saying, "How would that ruin that experience? Now anybody can go up there." Hmm.
27:03
Sir Edmund Hillary spinning in his grave. [laughs] Or did he discover the North Pole? No. [laughs] He, he was a mountain climber.
27:12
He's the mountain- So you, you were, you were talking about being in Holland now and how they're a lot more popular there. I just read something today that said they'd sold 40,000 e-bikes in Norway last year.
27:21
Yeah, they're huge.
27:22
And, and even the e-mountain bikes, although not so much in Holland that I see because everything is so flat, but there are lots of places in the Alps that are doing basically tourism, trying to get people in, that they're renting e-fat bikes and allowing people to go out.
27:36
They also have a tremendous amount of terrain, and it's all open access. But I don't think they have as much issue with, you know, sharing a lot of single track. It's a lot more wide open. Well, all right.
27:49
Should we take another call? We should. I think we will. Welcome to the radio program. Who do we have on the line? Hey, guys. It's, uh, Dave Schlabowske. Hey, Dave. Dave. How's it going? I'm doing really well.
28:02
How are you guys doing? Doing good. We're, uh, we're talking e-bikes today a little bit. Yeah. By the way, if people don't know, Dave, why don't you just tell folks a little bit about who Dave is?
28:11
[laughs] Well, uh, I'm, uh, I'm Dave. I work for the Wisconsin Bike Fed, uh, in the Milwaukee office. Um, among other things, I started the Santa Cycle Rampage and, uh, a little ride across Wisconsin that we do.
28:25
So, um, and, uh, I, I actually do own an e-bike. Nice. That's true. I've ridden your e-bike with a fat bike strapped to the back of it. [laughs] Exactly, my, my Slick North Paw on the back. Yeah, exactly.
28:39
So you, you ride a... Is it a Yuba? Um- It's a Yuba, right?... Yuba. Yeah. I've, I've got a Yuba Spicy Curry. Um, I've, I've test ridden a whole bunch of other e-bikes as well, um, mostly cargo bikes that...
28:51
You know, I use mine mostly for urban cargo stuff, not for, uh, off-road riding or, or recreational riding. But, uh, but I'm pretty familiar with them and, and the legislation around them and stuff like that.
29:02
So what, what's... Do- does the, uh, does the Bike Fed have an official stance on this yet? You know, we don't have an official stance.
29:10
Um, since I'm sort of the major, uh, e-bike user on Bike Fed's staff, uh, my position is, tends to be our official stance. [laughs] Um, and, uh, and, uh, I'm generally a supporter of them.
29:25
I just got a call today, um, uh, from somebody saying, "Hey, I wanna do a ride across Wisconsin. Do you allow people to do it on e-bikes?" And, uh, my response was like, "Sure."
29:38
Uh, the other people on staff were like, "Hey, I don't know. Is that okay?" I'm like, "Well, it's not a race. Um, there's no such thing as motor doping in a, a recreational ride." So, so I was like, "Sure, you wanna...
29:51
If that's the way you wanna do our ride, that, that's fine with us." So, and that's generally my opinion about e-bikes.
29:57
Um, I think they're a good thing for those who wanna use them for the general reasons they wanna use them. What about on your local trails there along the, uh, along the river in Tosa?
30:06
Would you, would you feel okay with people riding dedicated mountain bike trails on an, uh, on an assisted bicycle?
30:14
You know, um, I hate to start judging other people about why they choose whatever bike they choose, right? Mm-hmm.
30:22
So, um, I, I ride my, uh, just as an example, I, I ride my, um, my bike, you know, cargo bike, uh, to work quite a bit and, um, there's a couple of guys that, um, I know locally that are, are, uh, pro racers or semi-pro racers that commute to work kind of on my route or on my schedule, and I can't catch them if I see them in front of me on the Hank Aaron State Trail because they can go faster on their regular road bikes than I can go on my, you know, 350 watt assist cargo bike.
30:54
So if, if some guy is, is using a, a e-assist mountain bike or fat bike, um, and it's within the legal limits, um, because it helps him ride more, I'd rather see more butts on bikes personally, and, and the more people riding the better is generally my opinion.
31:14
Um, I do understand that there are gonna be those tuner guys that are out there with, uh, you know, 3000 watt, you know, after market motors, throwing them on their bikes, and they're never pedaling, and they're going 30 miles an hour down the trail.
31:30
I think we do need some sort of like, you know, um, common ground. We, we gotta come to some agreement on this that, that, uh, uh, you know, an electric motorcycle doesn't quite count even if it has pedals.
31:43
But where that is I'm not exactly sure, but in general right now I'm of the opinion that, hey, if it meets the legal limits for what a local bike shop can sell, um, and it helps you ride your bike more, go out and ride.
31:57
So do you think the, the pedal assist thing is a good delineator? That if it doesn't have a throttle that, you know, having to pedal and being assisted is, is different than just mashing on a button or twisting a grip?
32:10
Personally, that's what I like. I mean, and that's the way, um, my Yuba works. I- it doesn't have a throttle at all. Unless I'm pedaling it, it doesn't. But your pedals just become the throttle. Uh, the, the throttle.
32:21
The, the- You, I've ridden one.
32:22
Well, no, I think it's, uh- Your pedals just become the throttle and- I think it's different, especially on a trail, because when you stop pedaling you stop getting assist instead of gassing it into the tree.
32:32
So what's the difference between- And, and there's-... soft pedaling forward and twisting your wrist? Nothing. [laughs] Well, here's, here's what I think. It adds power at your, at your will. Here's what I think.
32:42
Here's what I think the difference is, and I, and I know people with, with, with e-assist bikes like these.
32:48
They've got, you know, 40 amp hour, you know, 80 volt plus battery packs on them and 3000 watt motors, and they can ride 50 miles at 30 miles an hour without ever touching their pedals.
33:06
I mean, like I said, I hate to split hairs and, and- Yeah... try to like- That's what I do... I'm not a, I'm not a legislative sort of guy, but to me that's an electric motorcycle.
33:15
That's, that's not, uh, you know, I pedal every mile I ride whether I'm going, you know, 12 miles an hour or, or 20 miles an hour, I'm pedaling every mile I, I go on mine, and I think that is kind of a delineator.
33:32
Right on. Well- Appreci- appreciate, uh, hearing from Dave about his ideas. We didn't even think about souping the, the people that would soup up e-bikes. We just thought well these bikes are alarming enough that,
33:46
that it was worth opening up the, uh, discussion. So you actually opened up a huge- Well, here, here-... can of worms there by saying that- You're right. It does...
33:55
people are going to add these after market upgrades and oh my God. That's... So, so you believe in at least- I think it's a teamwork... some kind of legislation to keep those off of trails, right?
34:07
Well, well, remember this too when we're talking about the m- vast majority of, of e-bike users. Um, the vast majority of them are people that are like, "Hey, you know what?
34:18
I love to ride my bike, but I will ride a lot more if I've got this little assist."
34:24
So for my cargo bike, you know, it's like, "Hey, I can do a liquor store run and haul back three cases of beer and over a big hill and, and I'm gonna make that trip on my bike instead of in my car."
34:35
Um, if, if you're a recreational rider and you're older with bad knees or something, it's like, "You know what? I can keep up with my friends who- [laughs]... who don't have bad knees and, and I can ride with them."
34:47
So I'm super positive about all those reasons to, to use electric bikes.
34:53
But, um, but I do agree that, that we gotta think cautiously about this because, yeah, the tuners are out there and, you know, just like with cars, um- Right, speaking of tuners...
35:02
you know, they're, you know, souping up their Hondas. I think we should call up Vin Diesel and see if, uh, Triple X whatever's gonna be an e-bike, uh, like Triple X 10, the e-bike movie. [laughs] Right.
35:13
It, it could be the next film, the next blockbuster. Starring Vin Diesel as Pee-wee Herman. [laughs] Cool, Dave. The perfect last name.
35:23
Well, Dave, thanks for being the positive, uh, message of, uh, of, of goodwill for e-bikes and, uh, calling us on the show- All right, guys...
35:32
and everything that you do for bicycle advocacy here in the beautiful state of Wisconsin. Thanks again, Dave. Well, well, thanks guys.
35:38
I, I'm gonna go back and join George Tickel down in my rec room and watch some, uh, television event that's on right now. Right on. Say hey to George. [laughs] All right. Okay, Dave. All right, boys. Bye.
35:48
[laughs] See ya. Drive. Well, that was the voice of reason.
35:52
You know, he d- he's been walking the line and, and doing the, uh, between different user groups for so long I think he's kind of developed a really- But he actually brought up like, like the horror scenario of- [laughs]
36:04
... of not only is, not only... Th- these, these things and the reason why, one of the reasons why I wanted to have this discussion is these bikes are coming. They're coming to a bike shop near you.
36:14
So anybody with five grand and, and a sense of adventure is gonna buy one of these things, and they're gonna end up on my trail So when that happens, I think there should be some rules in place for those people.
36:29
One, for the amount of power that, that, that they can apply, that, that, that bike, those bikes can have. Two, the training those people should have. Uh, and really, able-bodied people,
36:43
why- Sounds like you have a career as a politician... well, I don't know. I just don't think able-bodied people have a reason to take them on single track. You know?
36:52
If you want, if you wanna use them for hauling gear or hauling your groceries or a car-less lifestyle, or if you are have, if you have a disability that this keeps you riding, all for it. All for those things.
37:05
But when it comes to healthy people taking these on single track trails, trails that, that I spent time building, I didn't build single track trails for people on e-bikes. I built them for cyclists.
37:17
Or old guys on fat bikes. [laughs] And young people on 29ers, and any kind of pedal legal... I mean, think about that.
37:28
Think about what Dave said, is that these, these people can get five hours at 30 miles an hour without pedaling out of these bikes. Yeah, that's a motorcycle.
37:37
And it seems like an easy thing to say any single track trail that doesn't want an e-bike on there to say, "Well, no motorized vehicles." Right. But I- 'Cause that's a motorized vehicle...
37:47
but I- That doesn't matter whether it has a pedal or a throttle... I think you have to have an asterisk there to say, "Unless you get a disability license, you go through this training process, and then
38:03
when you know how to handle it, when to ride it, when not to ride it, all of those things, then you should be able to get in there." And those are gonna be small number of people. Right.
38:13
But if you have equal number of pedal bikes and equal number of e-bikes on a single track system, I think you're gonna have user on, you're gonna have cyclist-on-cyclist conflict. Rage.
38:25
[laughs] See, I've, I've ridden a 50-pound electric fat bike on trails, and I don't find it that fun at all. I'd rather ride my bike for sure. Mm-hmm. It doesn't respond anywhere near the same.
38:37
Yeah, going up a couple little hills or something, it's kinda cool for that small portion of it, but the other 95% of the ride, it's just such a handicap because it doesn't, doesn't work as well at all. Yeah.
38:49
So I have ridden them.
38:51
Yeah, I, I have, I have ridden that specialized Levo that we're currently testing, and, uh, last Saturday or Sunday, I was out for a ride at the Kettle Moraine trails, and I came across our tester, Craig Smith, who was riding that Levo, and he was at one of the big intersections where people tend to stop, and, you know, people were ready to kinda lynch the dude.
39:19
[laughs] Yeah, but Craig is one of the special cases. Right. I would say it's totally appropriate for him. Right. But I had to say, "Well, look, Craig has a degenerative muscle disease.
39:29
His legs don't work, and this is how he's staying on, in the saddle." Right on. So... and that's, I think Craig- Hey, speaking of people staying in the saddle- Yeah. Let's take a call...
39:40
who sh- who should we talk to now? Let's- Well, welcome. Welcome. Hello there. Welcome to the radio [laughs] program. Can you recognize that voice, Gomez? It's Old Bear. That's Old Bear right there.
39:48
Old Bear, what's going on, dude? [laughs] I was listening to you guys talk about those e-bikes. Yeah. I- oh. No? You guys still there? Yeah, I'm still here. Okay. I heard a big click.
40:01
[laughs] Yeah, that was, that was Gomez cocking the pistol so he could- Yeah, so I could, I don't know, uh- [laughs] Leave this Earth... no, Gomez, you don't wanna shoot me because I'm with you. Not you. [laughs] Oh.
40:12
No, I just like to light my cigarettes with a pistol. [laughs] You know, I read a long time ago in a, in a magazine, a good magazine, one without all the fluff advertisements, Mountain Biking Magazine,
40:29
but, uh, they, they were talking about how that, uh, you know, the BLM out there in Moab said no e-bikes on a, on the single track out there. I don't know if they've changed that. Have they? I don't know. That's...
40:44
we, we actually asked IMBA to, uh, be a part of the show. They, uh, they're too busy with their, uh, world summit to give us- Yeah... some in- insights.
40:54
They, uh, recommended that we talk to Morgan at PeopleForBikes, that you didn't hear at the beginning of the show but will be inserted in there somewhere in this editorial process, uh- Okay...
41:06
where, uh, we were- You're, you're smoke and mirroring everybody. You're, you're- We were looking-... taking the wraps off.
41:11
You're, you're- We were looking for advocates to step up and say, "Well, this is the official policy." But what I'm finding more or less is that there really isn't an official policy yet. Not yet. Not yet.
41:25
And yet- Right... the big red S has their factory in China revving up the, the production on full suspension, meant for single track, 20 mile an hour-
41:42
27 plus... yeah, 27 plus full suspension bike, as well as a really sweet fat bike with a Bluto and XX1 drivetrain and a dropper post. I mean, these bikes are made for off-roading.
41:58
I have it from Specialized, yes, these bikes are meant to go off road, and Specialized said that they worked with, with IMBA. Um, but at this IMBA summit,
42:10
it appears as though they're going to solidify some sort of policy on e- e-bikes, and that's one of the reasons why we asked people to call in and talk about e-bikes.
42:21
We hoped that we would be able to s- provide a little bit of education about what they are. Edumification So, uh, so Old Bear, have you ridden an e-bike, e- any, any style- Well-... e-bike yet? I don't intend to.
42:34
[laughs] It's gonna be like crack. You'll never get off that thing. Well, I'll tell you why. Um, I wanna stay in shape the, what I call the natural way- Mm-hmm... on my fat bike. Um,
42:46
I mean, it would be great if I had outrageous arthritis in my limbs or something could assist me, but I haven't hit that yet. I haven't hit that Costco yet. You know, I have arthritis in my shoulder. Eh, so what?
43:02
But as far as an e-bike goes, I mean, even down here, you know, we have that Berryman Trail. Mm-hmm.
43:09
I could see some guy from the city coming down there on his e-bike and getting injured, you know, see, or getting just so wore out that he can't go any further. How is he gonna get help in the middle of the wilderness?
43:25
There you go. You know? You get out there three hours and your battery goes. You have a 60-pound bike [laughs] that you can't necessarily pedal back. But, you know, that could happen with a regular bike, too.
43:37
Yeah, that's true. Especially if your brakes lock up. The guy gets- If your brakes lock up or if you've got a lot of frame bags on there and you can carry more than, more beers than, than you can- [laughs]...
43:48
detoxify your liver and you pass out and- Right... and then- You know, these guys, um-... you end up in bed with a raccoon or a gnome. [laughs] Spooning.
43:59
I really appreciate you guys doing this because we need to get a voice- Yeah... a unified voice about e-bikes. I mean, they're great, like you guys said, for somebody with a disability.
44:10
But for the average, not average, but the regular cyclist, it would, it's of no use really other than, like you said, maybe hauling your gear or your groceries, you know.
44:24
Some guy, I'm still saying some guy gets out there in the wilderness, like out in the Slickrock if they allowed them there. Mm-hmm.
44:31
Somebody gets way out in the back of the Slickrock and has a problem, either mechanically or physically or both, I mean, that heat could kill somebody in nothing flat, especially if they think they're just gonna be out there for 20 minutes riding the thing,
44:50
you know, with no hydration or anything. That's just ludicrous. All right. That's the bottom line. You, you heard it from Old Bear.
44:59
Old Bear, the, our engineer, Bobby, he's been giving me the, uh, we have three more callers, so we're going to, uh- Okay, guys... send you, send you off to, uh, to slumber time, and we're gonna take the next caller.
45:12
Thanks for calling, dude. Thanks, Old Bear. I'm gonna go turn in. We'll see you guys later. All right. See you, Old Bear. Bye, brother. Yep. GK was like, "Yep." [laughs] Hey, welcome to the radio program.
45:24
Hello, Fat Bike Radio. How's it going? It's going great. We got- So Gomez, are you getting lazy on us and, and, uh, now you're gonna ride a, an electric bike? [laughs] We got Wade talking to Gomez now. Wow, Wade.
45:39
[laughs] Just a shallow walk in the water. No, I told him I want to try one out. I want to ride one out somewhere for a while. No, I had to get rid of that thing. I had to get that out of my house.
45:47
I had it in my house for two days, and I was like, "Uh, I have to get this out of my house." [laughs] So yeah, I, I rode it, and- Oh, great...
45:57
honestly, like, we, we said we wanted to provide some education is I have ridden one of these bikes on the trails, and of course, I turned it up to 11 eventually.
46:08
You know, I started out [laughs] in the lower settings, and then I was like, "Well, let's just give it a try." And, you know, it never spun the tire. It never seemed to do more damage than a normal mountain bike would.
46:22
So and that's why- Well, if it doesn't do gas monkey burnouts, then this is- [laughs]... it's a deal breaker. See?
46:28
[laughs] And that's why I said after I, in my initial write-up or Craig's initial write-up of that specialized Levo Turbo is that after riding one, I'm somewhat more conflicted than I was before I rode them.
46:42
'Cause before I rode them- Mm-hmm... I was like, "Uh-uh, not on my trail. No way."
46:48
You know, only, only handicapped, and then anything on pavement, any, any place that you allow motorized vehicles, God bless you, go, ride whatever you want, but on single track, eh, I had a problem with it.
47:01
So then I rode one, and then I was like- Well, you know-... eh, I don't know...
47:04
the way I feel about it all is, look, it's on our shoulders to be good stewards of mountain biking, fat biking, whatever you wanna call it this week- Mm-hmm... as a whole.
47:15
So if you can be respectful and you're not hauling bananas and running people off the cotton picking trail, hey, all the power to you. This is- As long as you can be respectful and courteous- You, you do realize-...
47:24
to the other riders out there... we live in America, and that there's, like,
47:28
guys already, according [laughs] to the Wisconsin Bike Fed that said that they're taking the, I believe, 30 amps is the limit, and they're hocking that up to 80 amps, and, you know, they're, uh, they're programming these- Wow...
47:45
to be more motorcycle-like. But I'm telling you, that specialized, you can just soft pedal, just turn those pedals- Yeah, yeah... ever so gently, and you go 20 miles an hour.
47:58
Well, they have, they ha- at the local, uh, special ed dealer- Mm-hmm... they have, and there's a story behind that one I'll get into in a moment, but they had the e-assist bikes. They're not a straight electric. And
48:13
you, you pedal the damn things, and they take off, and it's like, "Oh, I, I like this." [laughs] Right. Yeah. And I think we're talking about the same animal. The, you know- It's the Turbo Levo line of bikes.
48:23
Yeah, maybe so. It's kind of an, an assist rather than, rather than a full-blown electric. Well, at the highest setting, it's 100% assist What's that? It was definitely fun to rip it around, but there again- Oh...
48:36
you know, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of a purist and, and, you know, Sarge has no i- no interest in being electrified. Um, the mayor has no interest in being s- electrified. Dylan went electric.
48:49
Nor- But not the mayor Nor does the trial bike. [laughs] All right, so we didn't ask Wade any of the questions. Wanna see what my screen looks like? Oh. It looks like that. He doesn't...
49:01
[laughs] So yeah, I- Show it to me... one, one of, one of the questions would be- I want to see what's showing up... he- he's answered one of them. He's ridden- He's ridden one... an e-bike before.
49:10
And he did say that he didn't think that he wanted to ride one on his trails. How would you feel about other people riding them on your trails?
49:17
Well- Do you think that your trails should come up with any special rules regarding e-assist bikes? It kind of di- well, you know, it's, it's down to courtesy and common sense.
49:28
So again, like I mentioned earlier, is as long as these people are not running you off the trail as you ride your traditional bike, cool.
49:36
If they're not, you know, being jerks about doing it, going excessively- [coughs]... speed where there's other, other trail users, I don't have a problem with it.
49:44
I don't foresee them doing any more trail damage than we're already doing by locking up brakes or doing whatever we're gonna do with a bicycle. Right. Same, same brakes.
49:53
I mean, and there is a study, and we'll say again that the s- the link to the study will be in our show notes, that is a real study as far as I could see, uh, extensive, was done in, uh, out west trails. So, you know.
50:08
Oh, more beers. [bell rings] Top of the hill, boys. Top of the hill. Got any beers up there, Wade? Oh, you guys have a beer assistant? We don't have a beer assistant. [laughs] You guys- More or less.
50:18
The, the beer lackey. I'm just the closest to the- Sven. Sven... closest to the fridge. Yeah, Wade. Really, yeah, we should rotate locations, but that would probably cause all sorts of other problems.
50:27
I think, I think Sven should be the beer assistant tonight. Uh- There you go... okay. Wade. I have to run all the way around the table. [laughs] You know what, you know what Sven does, is he runs the s- the switchboard.
50:39
Pretty much guaranteed you'll get on the show, man. [laughs] Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hang up on Wade so I can go be beer guy.
50:46
[laughs] All right, Wade, you've been the best guest we've had in the last two minutes, so, uh, we're gonna go to our next caller. All right. Thanks for calling in and, uh, there'll be no- Glad to be here...
51:00
uh, there'll be no consolation gifts or anything. Uh, we're basically, I don't know. Okay, that's not the purpose of the call.
51:08
[laughs] The purpose of the call is to have some fun and give you guys a hard time and, uh- [laughs]... talk about e-bikes. [laughs] Mission accomplished. All right, Wade, thanks for calling. All right. All right. Bye.
51:17
That's all for now. And now... For something completely different. Welcome to the radio program. Who do we have on the line? This is Spinner. It's Spinner. Spinner Briarson. What's going on?
51:29
Uh, we're talking, uh, e- e- e-bike, fat bike, e- e-bike stuff. Yeah. Fat e-bikes. Fat- Fatty bikes? Fat e-viking bikes. Fatty Lumpkin? [laughs] Fatty Lumpkin bikes. Now those are cool.
51:45
Would, would you, would you use a battleaxe that has an electric assist for beheading and, uh, pillaging villages? Ah, geez, that'd just be wussy, wouldn't it?
51:57
[laughs] It just, it just wouldn't be the same, the, the mayhem. It would not be nearly as fun. So Spinner, have, have you ever ridden an e-bike of any type? I don't think so. If I did, I would've been out at
52:14
Spinner Bike one of these years and I'd have been too drunk to remember. So- Attaboy... I do not believe I've ever ridden one.
52:20
And, uh, you're a trail builder, much like, much like many people who are sitting at this table. How would you feel about
52:27
an e-bike or an e-bike gang or an e-bike club coming to your trails and, uh, I don't know, having some sushi, doing some laps?
52:39
[laughs] Uh, I guess my take on it is, you know, it's not, to me, it's not a bicycle. It's a motorcycle.
52:48
And again, I've heard from a previous conversation you guys are having and, you know, it's just, uh, in a lot of places I live, we work with a lot of different user groups. You know, there's like, uh, you know, we have
52:59
problems with, you know, I don't, maybe not problems, but it just takes a lot of work to get, you know, uh, get along with a group like a snowmobile group, you know, that type of dynamic. Or those shroomers.
53:11
Same thing with, with- [laughs] Yeah. Same thing with horses and different people.
53:16
[laughs] So, you know, when you start putting motorized stuff on a trail, 'cause whether it's gas powered or electric powered, that's a motorized vehicle either way. That's how, that's how I see it.
53:27
And what does that open the door to? You know, how long will it be before dirt bikes and where do you draw the line?
53:32
And I heard you were saying something about a total amperage or something, the power of the motor in the bike. Right, right. Quite right. That's gonna be really, really hard to regulate.
53:41
There are regulations as to what can be sold in the US and sold in Europe, and I, I know enough to know that those are two different levels right now. Um- Okay...
53:52
so, and, and that's why, one of the reasons why I think that we need guidance, we need rules because- Yeah... as opposed to sunshine and rainbows, Wade, I believe that courtesy is- A cocktail...
54:09
[laughs] is, is, is, is something that, that existed in the bygone eras of the past. Yeah, this is 'Murica. We don't have that shit anymore here. Uh, you know, I- Yeah, that's what I thought... any idiot with 5,000 bucks
54:25
is what you're gonna end up with, as well as many other good, courteous, kind, respectful people. It takes all kinds, but there are those, and it only takes one or two of those, you know, that-...
54:41
could possibly cause conflict. I think with a good set of rules- Is-... conflict can be avoided... is this your fourth call in already? [laughs] And the World According to GOBA, this is our new show.
54:58
[laughs] We haven't even asked JK what he thinks. And we're going... Oh, do I, am I done? Gonna wait for JK? I don't know. I don't know. Did you tell... You said no. You said...
55:08
How about, how do you feel about, we haven't brought this up, grooming with, with e-bikes. Well, they groom with rocons and those things have motors on them. Right.
55:17
They groom with snowmobiles and those things have motors on them. Right. Here's a- All right. All right... here's a good use for that Yeah, I don't see that. You know, an electric bike is gonna pull a groomer?
55:25
I don't see that happening. I don't see it making a trail worth riding. A tiny one. I... [laughs] Well, I mean, let me- Well, and- When you're talking about rules, are you talking about rules for bikes?
55:36
Are you talking about rules for- E-bikes... e-bikes on your standard mountain bike trails? Correct. But today we have certain trails that horses and bikes can ride.
55:46
We have certain trails that snowmobiles and bikes can ride, but, you know, we don't let horses on all single track and we don't let snowmobiles on all single track.
55:53
But right now, Holmes- So maybe if there is a different- Holmeslace... trail system- Our trails, there's no rules. There's nothing stopping someone with an e-bike to go ride any trial, trail in this state. Nothing.
56:07
There's nothing on the books. Right. Nothing yet, right. Right. Well, there's stuff that keeps motorcycles off the mountain bike trails. Right. There's stuff that keeps mountain bikes off of walking trails, right?
56:17
So if we can get some classification going like that, I don't know, it's gonna be tough. I don't ride one. But I'm not riding one. [laughs] I know you guys are not on them. Can't we all just get along?
56:28
[laughs] All right, man. We got more callers. All right. Okay. Hang out, Spinner- Okay... if you want. We're gonna talk to some other folk, see what they got to say. I'll keep on listening. Right on. Right on.
56:40
Welcome to the radio program. Who do we have on the line? You got the mayor out here in the lovely Camrock area. Fantastic. It's Chuck. Chuck, you were, you were one of my- Yeah...
56:51
one of my choices for the voice of reason, and you're an advocate- [laughs]... and you're a trail builder, so, uh, have you ever ridden an e-bike? I have ridden an e-bike, but I have not ridden a modern e-bike. Okay.
57:07
You know, not a modern mountain bike e-bike. How do you feel about e-bikes out there at the Camrock, which you have, uh, you know, you've, you've dedicated a big part of your life to making those trails awesome?
57:21
[laughs] Thank you. Um, I, uh, I'm just eternally torn on the whole damn thing. [laughs] I, uh, I'm kind of a purist myself. I think, uh, you know, these trails were built for, um, people that have ridden these trails.
57:38
We've got some real tight technical sections and things like that, which is, you know, designed for, you know, true single track riding. Some of it's not super fast. Some areas are, but some aren't.
57:50
Um, I think some trails are gonna suit themselves better to it, but, um, and I'm, I'm also kind of afraid of the whole, you know, where is it gonna go?
58:00
I mean, what we're looking at today on a mountain bike, you know, where you were talking about earlier on, where, you know, what's to stop them from upping the amperage, upping the maximum miles per hour, and if I knew what the heck I was doing, I'd sure go in there and tinker with it and get the most out of it I could.
58:16
Um, [laughs] so yeah, I think, uh, I don't know how you stop that, somebody that's gonna go out there and, you know, I, I think it's a motor, so,
58:28
um, but the flip side of that is I, I, I, I'm a pretty empathetic kind of guy, too, so hey, if I was, you know, half disabled from whatever, um, I'd love to see somebody able to do that if it allows them to be in the sport or go out on a ride with their friends.
58:43
But how the heck do you regulate that, you know? Uh- Just the same way you do driver's license, I think... get a special permit to have an e-bike on the trail. But- And marijuana, too. [laughs] Right.
58:54
[laughs] All of the above. Wait, I can get a driver's license for marijuana? Well, yeah, sure. Wow. Oh, yeah, Colorado, Washington, the progressive states. With your hand weed while you're riding your e-bike. Exactly.
59:07
Your- With a cigarette lighter- Cigarette handy, right... on it. [laughs] Like those old style car cigarette lighters that kick ass. That'd be cool. That's the way it should be,
59:16
'cause you got an e-bike, so why not have that, an electric cigarette lighter? Yeah, exactly, and a toaster- Right... and a blender and maybe a pump- [laughs]... and sound system.
59:29
That ought to piss off the nature lovers. But hey- So Chuck, have you, have you run across anybody out on the trails already that's riding one? I have not on the single track.
59:40
On the, on the, like the, you know, the, we got a, a main like gravel trail I call it. Mm-hmm. You know, limestone trail, and on some of the even grass double track I've seen people on those trails.
59:52
Uh, a couple just local people in town, and they're, you know, they're elderly and I'm like, "Hey, kick ass. You're out there riding," you know? Um,
1:00:00
but if I ran into a 25 year old, or heck, even somebody my age that's able-bodied that's using it to shoot down Rip and Ride at super high speeds, um, nah, not so much.
1:00:12
You know, I wouldn't have that same, same reaction, I'm sure. Right. Right on. So yeah. You're kind of, you're kind of mirroring the way I feel about it. Like, yeah, there are special circumstances- Yeah...
1:00:23
but I'm ambivalent about it, and I have a feeling that it's just 'cause I'm an old grouchy fart is the reason why I don't think they should be on there, 'cause I've actually ridden one and I was like- Well, and I've even talked, you know, and I, I mean, that's the thing is for me, too, I think there's special circumstances, but I've even talked to our rangers out here about it, 'cause we're a county park system.
1:00:43
Mm-hmm. Um, so it's state and stuff. That doesn't mean a dang thing. It's whatever the county decides. Right. And, uh- And in the com-- they said, well, h- you know, they kind of the same idea.
1:00:53
And then when I brought up, you know, the special circumstance, whatever, so what would y- but then how the heck do you regulate that, you know? [laughs] With, with a big red X on the back of the rider.
1:01:02
A handicap placard or tattoo. [laughs] Or hologram. [laughs] That oughta do it. I like that. [laughs] We're working on that technology right now. Hang it from below the seat and swinging down there like a pair of those
1:01:18
truck balls. Uh-oh. [laughs] There goes our family rating. Right? I, I, I already, I already swore. [laughs] Just kidding. All right, Chuck. Well, Chuck, thanks for calling. We're gonna move on to the next caller. Yep.
1:01:29
You rock the hizzy. All right. Thanks, man. Absolutely. You think we're moving on to the next caller. Yes. But you know what we're really doing? What we're really, what was, what, what, what, what- We're taking a break.
1:01:39
What was it? We're taking a break right now. All right. I'm ready for a break. We're gonna take a break. You know- Oh... what we're gonna do when we come back from the break? Top of the hill.
1:01:45
[bell rings] Oh, another break. I'm so game. I- We're gonna, we're gonna take a, we're gonna do a listener question when we come back. All right. We'll b- we'll, we'll be back in a minute. All right. As far as you know.
1:01:55
[upbeat music] So I heard you need a fat bike. Mm-hmm. Come to Zion Cyclery in Zion, Illinois. We have all brands, Trek, Borealis, Salsa, Felt, Surly, and more.
1:02:08
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1:02:26
So yeah, visit us at zioncyclery.com. You're tuned to Fat Bike Radio. Hey, welcome back to the radio program. We had a l- listener.
1:02:42
His name is Josh, and he, uh, he called- Our one listener? He, he- No, we know that we have more than one listener tonight, 'cause we have call-ins. He, uh, he called me on the email. [laughs] Boop beep boop beep boop.
1:02:55
And, uh, he told me that he's been r- riding a rigid Ogre, and then he does, uh, you know, like the Dakota 500 and the QT 100, the Back 40, these, these marathon-level mountain bike races that aren't on snow.
1:03:10
And he's thinking, he rode a, uh, Mukluk with a Bluto that his buddy had, and he's thinking that fat bikes might be the answer. And, uh, he's going from a steel bike, so he's thinking about getting a steel fat bike.
1:03:25
He's thinking about an Advocate Watchman, which is a steel bike that resembles the Mukluk's, uh, geometry.
1:03:34
And he's, uh, he asked us if he should consider any other bikes in that price range, which would be about the $2,700, uh, McThinger. Boy, that opens up a lot of choices. I know.
1:03:48
That seems to be the super most common question of the world. I would say for those races, for ultra-marathon races, if it were me, like, I'll play the fantasy [laughs] that I'm an ultra-marathon racer
1:04:06
and say, "I can't do it. I, I can't even imagine." I, I think it, it all comes down to the how you're gonna ride, you know? He's gonna race 50 or 100 miles on trail. And the Watchman's a pretty good bike.
1:04:20
I wouldn't, I would, I would try it. Yeah. I'd get 10 miles in and I'd be like, "Yeah, that was good." That was fun. [laughs] Uh, boy. I don't know. That Bluto seems like three pounds of boat anchor. $2,700.
1:04:34
Seems like a ri- rigid carbon bike. And then- He was talking about how the, uh, Ogre was, uh, hurting his hands. [laughs] What about, uh, what about throwing a Carbonara on there? Oh.
1:04:42
Maybe getting something light just takes the edge off. Oh, good call. You know, on those marathon races you're not going 40 miles an hour the whole time.
1:04:49
You're, you're chugging along at 12 or 15 or whatever, but especially where the Dakota 500 is, there's a lot of little roots and rocks and- So maybe buy one of those $1,400 carbon Salsa Mukluks
1:05:04
and throw a $1,000 Carbonara fork on there. Maybe a taller- You just saved yourself 300 bucks. There you go. That's what I'm talking about. Good- You have to wear an ascot or something.
1:05:15
What, what, what, what goes in Iceland? You have to wear a cod on your head or something, I don't know. Hey, do you wanna take a, another caller or do you wanna s- skip over links, or what do you wanna do?
1:05:27
Uh- Let's take another call. We got a caller. All right. We've, since we told these folks to call in, we might as well take a call. Welcome to the radio program, caller. Thank you for calling. How may we help you?
1:05:37
So this- It's, thank you, now it's your turn. Yeah, this, this- [laughs] This is Josh. And you just addressed my, uh, email right when I called in, so I caught the tail end of that. Oh, it's Josh. He's our listener.
1:05:51
Josh. [laughs] Yeah. How's it going? We just read your question on the air, and we basically- I know, I-... sold you a Salsa, a, a Salsa with a Carbonara fork.
1:06:01
[laughs] [laughs] Hey, Mike, Mike Ramer's gonna be like, "Gomez, I knew you were good for something." Gomez, what the hell? Did you get hit in the head? [laughs] [laughs] Uh- S-... all right.
1:06:12
Well, thanks so much for, uh, yeah, l- uh, reading and responding and then covering it on your show. I appreciate it. No problem, man. Did, did you pick the Watchman because it's steel? Originally, yes. All right.
1:06:25
So, and, uh, it was kind of, it was a recommendation from a local bike shop. I, you know, I went in there with the same deal, "Hey, I rode this Mukluk, it was great." Uh-huh.
1:06:34
They said, "Before you buy it, ride the Watchman." So, so I did, and it's a much livelier bike, so much more playful. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, "Well, maybe, but what else is out there?"
1:06:47
And so then I ran onto- You know, you guys at some point and, and read about the, or listened about the OXO voice deck as well. So I'm actually upping my, um, budget possibly- Your budget?
1:07:01
So- Not- I, I think Gomez hit on one of the, uh, one of the key deals is the Bluto m- maybe isn't the right fork for a fat bike in some circumstances. Depends on what you're doing.
1:07:13
Um, if you're gonna do a lot of big hit stuff, it probably works a little better than a Carbonara, but that, that Lauf is light, and I think that extra three pounds on the front of your bike is something that you're not gonna wanna have there ex- for the 5 or 10% of the time that you're actually gonna use it.
1:07:30
And since you're, you're already accustomed to riding a rigid bike, you're going to gain a great deal of pneumatic suspension just with a fat bike front tire. Um, it might be worth taking that baby step.
1:07:46
Um, and the other thing for these ultra-marathon distances that I think goes beyond your $2,700 budget, but can be done in, you know, like add that to next year's bike budget, is a lightweight set of carbon wheels for that bike.
1:08:02
Oh, yes. And going tubeless. You know? And you can go tubeless on your aluminum wheels right away, and that's gonna give you the ability to run lower pressure, have a more supple ride feel. Supple.
1:08:17
So if you like steel bikes, I have one other company that I think would be interesting for you to look at, and that is Chumba USA.
1:08:26
Um, that is a company in Texas that makes excellent fat bikes, and, uh, boy, Vince down there would, uh- They're, they're named after bar Yeah, Chumba. The bear. Ursa, Ursa. You know, Ursa, Chumba.
1:08:42
I don't think Chumba means bear. Oh, that's right. [laughs] What does Chumba mean? It means Chumba Umba, whatever that means. Chumba Umba, whatever that means.
1:08:50
So- All right, your assignment is to call the show next week and come back with 10 reasons why Gomez should never be allowed on this program again. Thank you for calling, listener. [laughs] Thanks a lot. Yeah, thank you.
1:09:04
Thanks for listening. Bye bye. All right, see ya. All right, Josh. Bye. Hey, we're almost done with this thing, but, but before we go. Before we go.
1:09:13
I thought we might tell folks we have two upcoming remote, remote Dose of Fat Shows. [laughs] Yeah, we're, we're in the special segment. Ha, yeah, ha. As far as you know. Ha.
1:09:24
[laughs] So, uh, we're going up to the Winter Bike Expo in Minneapolis, Freewheel Bikes, uh, just before Global Fat Bike Day. Stop clicking that thing. Ah, I knew this would get to you eventually.
1:09:34
[laughs] It's been going on for like a half hour. I've tried not to say anything. [laughs] Put it next to the mic and do it. No, just kidding.
1:09:40
So we're going up there, and then that's just right before Global Fat Bike Day, which is, of course, December 30th. That's Freewheel's big Winter Bike Expo.
1:09:48
And on January 8th, 2017, live show at Phatter by the Lake in Zion, Illinois, nestled between the supple bosoms of Milwaukee and Chicago.
1:10:02
Beer, music, beach ride, and tag team Indian leg wrestling challenge January 8th on Asbestos Beach.
1:10:11
We, Sven and Gomez, Los Borrachos challenge Gary Fisher and Keith Bontrager to a tag team wrestling cage match. Cage match. Cage match. By God, King. We're gonna do that, aren't we? Yeah.
1:10:27
But I'm sure those guys will come. I'm pretty sure they'll come. Uh, we got a whole bunch of Global Fat Bike Day events.
1:10:32
[laughs] We're getting a pretty good, pretty good selection, a chunky thing, a bunch of dealy bobbers there. Uh, if you do have a Global Fat Bike Day event that you're planning, let us know about it.
1:10:40
We'll make sure the word gets out. Our show this evening has been brought to you by the bikes, parts, and chaos of Surly Bikes. But wait. There's more. Be- [laughs] before you go. [laughs] There's more. Really?
1:10:54
Welcome, welcome to the radio program caller. Who do we have on the line? This is Marty. It's Marty Tank. Marty from Maquanago. It is- How's it going, Marty? No, Oconomowoc. Ock-a-mock and a mock and a knock-a-mock?
1:11:09
No way, you moved. How, how do you pronounce that? That's... Hey, dude. You also were one of our voices of reason. In Oconomowoc. How do you- I, I tried really hard at that. I did. Yeah. So have you ridden an e-bike?
1:11:23
I have ridden an e-bike. Okay. So you know- Yeah... what they feel like. They, it feels like you're really, really super fast even when you're not. Um- Right, Lance Armstrong legs. Right.
1:11:36
So for me, I guess it's not something that I would need, but I could see where it was, would be something that maybe people don't ride every day or have some kind of condition, um, that doesn't allow them to, or they have limitations, it would be a great option for somebody like that.
1:11:51
See how Marty implied that he's fast? Marty is fast. [laughs] I knew Marty when he was, when he was not as fast as he is now, though. Right. But Mar- Marty- I-... and you and I have built trail together- We have done...
1:12:04
out there at Kettle Have done. Yeah. So y- so you're all right at, uh, them being allowed on the trails at Kettle? 'Cause huh, [laughs] let me, huh- I- I'll tell you this already.
1:12:14
They're already allowed there- I didn't say that... 'cause I saw one there on Sunday. I didn't say that. Aha. [laughs] Qui- quit putting words in Marty's mouth. Uh-oh.
1:12:24
I do, [laughs] I do have a certain take on e-bikes on mountain bike trails. Initially I wasn't, I was kind of against it. Mm-hmm.
1:12:33
But since I realized just in, in a more general sense that anything that gets more people on bikes is, is a good thing. Mm-hmm. And mountain bikes as well.
1:12:40
But my, I guess, concern as a, as a trail advocate, trail builder is that we, we, uh, people in general we tend to push limits.
1:12:49
And so what happens when people start bringing e-bikes on the trails that are a little too powerful for the trail, they actually start doing damage to the trail.
1:12:59
I know people who use e-bikes on trails and I'm, I'm glad that it's able to get them on the trails and doing something that they might not otherwise been able to do. Mm-hmm.
1:13:08
But again, my concern is that if it starts tearing up the trails, especially, you know, you're talking about the state and the national level, they're really slow to change.
1:13:17
If they see, start seeing that and they just shut down the trails, they kick out all mountain bikers because, um, we didn't really see this coming, I'd like to see them start thinking about that now.
1:13:27
Like, what are, are we gonna be able to put some kind of regulation in place to be like, "Okay, it has to be under a certain power limit so that, uh, it doesn't do damage to the trail," or, or whatever it might look like.
1:13:40
There you go, power limits, and I, I think training of, I, I think that you need to learn about the possible impact of, of what you're using- Right... and learn how to use it responsibly.
1:13:54
So is that on, is that on the person, or is that on the bike shop that sells the bike, or is that on the trail steward? Who's, who's the, uh, the training portion of it gonna be? Whose responsibility that gonna be?
1:14:05
Who's making the, uh, huge piles of money? Who's collecting that $5,000 from every idiot that has $5,000? Fatbike.com? Not us. [laughs] Dang it. We're in the wrong business.
1:14:18
I'd say it's on the bike companies, or the bike companies to fund a non-for-profit education and licensing entity. So this is like getting your car license only- Yeah, some-... not quite as- Some-... strenuous...
1:14:32
I don't have a- all the answers. All I know is that- It sounds like you do... I'm, I'm concerned. [laughs] I'm verklempt. Yeah. Very valid reason for being concerned, and I appreciate you having me on. All right.
1:14:45
Marty, he wrote his own goodbye. Look at that, he just wrote himself a... Damn, y- do you, hey, we- I, I, I, I- We, we might, I think we might, we, we might have a regular position open for you, Marty.
1:14:58
[laughs] All right, Marty, thanks very much. See you, Marty. Bye. Have a good night, guys. Learn more at surlybikes.com. Call 818-918-2453 anytime day or night and leave us a message, you know? You know?
1:15:14
Hey, you know what else? We got new stuff in the, uh, fatbike.com shop. If you wanna check out T-shirts, hoodies, uh, heck, even coffee mugs, we sold one this week, uh, they're in the shop.
1:15:24
You can, uh, find a link in the show notes. Join us next week when our event of the week will be question mark, question mark, question mark. Until next time. Till then.
1:15:36
[rock music] You've been listening to Fat Bike Radio's weekly dose of fat. Find us on the web at fat-bike.com/radio. We'll see you next time.
1:15:52
[rock music]
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